A Federal Green Sticker?

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:46 am

Why not a Federal Green Sticker program, one that works for the
users that pay the fees. Just shine on the state all together on
Federal land, lets face it Ca government is a lost cause.

V8rail · Post by **V8rail** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:02 am

TomJeeps wrote:Why not a Federal Green Sticker program, one that works for the
users that pay the fees. Just shine on the state all together on
Federal land, lets face it Ca government is a lost cause.

And you think all this liberal *** like Clinton, Gore, etc etc would make a better job

No federal green sticker for me

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:37 pm

Ok the Glamis grant from Green Sticker just got denied. how
will the dunes stay open? My plan is to replace the State Green
Sticker System on Federal Land to one That works for the users
that pay the fee's. (you call me a liberal do you even know what's
going on with the Green Sticker funds in this state) Any way if
you want to name call why don't you ask where all that Demo riders
fee's gone off too, Some 2.5 Million or so ?? What
did you get 3 rest rooms?

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:48 pm

Also by the way, the State Green Sticker funds are what C.A.R.B.
uses as the arm to get the Feds to enforce the Red sticker riding
season. There would be a chance that B.S. would just go away.

Poiks · Post by **Poiks** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:01 pm

TJ, I think he was calling Clinton, Gore, et. al. liberals.

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:55 pm

I would always welcome input one way or the other on any post
I put up on any board, hopefully by folks that show they have
some idea whats going on with the subject I posted. If he thinks
he is paying for his ridership twice he's wrong it's at least 3or 4 times.
Like I said if you want to get worked up over something ask where
all that money gone that All of you have been putting in those
machines last two years?

V8rail · Post by **V8rail** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:34 pm

TJ,

I did not call you a liberal ***.

What you think will happen after Bush? I have a hard enough time to fight the CA green sticker, I don't need it at a federal level !

Then to set some # straight :

Yes I know what is going on here. I was at the OHMVR meeting in Moreno Valley. I did not see you there!

You are wrong, Glamis got some money (for law enforcement). They did not get money for O&M. (BTW Dumont and El Mirage got also cut badly).

Fee Demo, BLM gets about $700k not $2.5Million.

BLM El Centro spends $5M for the ISDRA, they get about $1.5M from different sources and all the other areas pay the rest for you !!!

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:47 pm

A little pressure on the Green sticker commission never hurts but, I
think it's a wast of effort. as far as the Numbers you put out there
it's all a moot point it all adds up to No ridership no matter how
you crunch the numbers. It's nice to see that you do have some
idea whats going on , have you checked on the make up of the
Commission over the last 2 years. 4 greenies 3 older Pro OHV Folks.
Don't be fooled just because they smile at you and thank you
for your commits. Just remember who your friends are.

V8rail · Post by **V8rail** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:09 pm

TomJeeps wrote:It's nice to see that you do have some
idea whats going on , have you checked on the make up of the
Commission over the last 2 years. 4 greenies 3 older Pro OHV Folks.

TJ,

I'm surprised that you know that much about this

I tell you for the OHV leadership these are very old news ...

So then answer my question, what you think will happen with a federal commission after Bush?

I'm fighting long enough to know what will happen, hopefully you are able to look back at the history of the Green Sticker and you are able to see the danger your idea has to our sport.

BTW there is soon another BLM meeting about Green Sticker Grants ... would be nice to see you there. You can learn a lot there about this fight

Voice · Post by **Voice** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:32 pm

BLM El Centro spends $5M for the ISDRA, they get about $1.5M from different sources and all the other areas pay the rest for you !!!

This "I'm tired of paying YOUR way" crap is getting tired.

We ALL pay too much.
NONE of us are getting our moneies worth.
Glamis has MANY TIMES more visitors than ANY OTHER OHV area in California.

If anyone is paying anyone elses way it's the MILLIONS of Glamis visitors getting screwed.

A federal Green Sticker would be just fine... Except a CA green sticker would STILL be required in the State of California.

Myself, I just wish they would quit spending all of MY money on CRAP that I don't need/want and quit charging me to dune.

Vor

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:06 pm

Yes I know we are all paying many times over for our ridership
at Glamis and other areas, ok What are we going to do about it.
Also somebody Show me where it is written that the Federal
Government must require a State sticker to ride on Federal Land.
State Riding areas yes, Forest and BLM other than the funds they
get what is their motivation for enforcing a State Sticker on
Federal Land? The Greenies highjacked our funds, the money
is gone what our the options?

azsandrider · Post by **azsandrider** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:06 pm

VOICE:

Your 100% right!!!

But what can we do about it? How can we get the short term funds the ISDRA needs?

TJ: I have preposing this off and on for sometime. I call it a "Brown Sticker" and EVERY vehicle outside of designated camp areas in the ISDRA need one. I propose $10 a vehicle per year.

That way WE ALL pay the same to use the dunes, whether your from CA or AZ.

V8rail · Post by **V8rail** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:15 pm

Voice wrote:We ALL pay too much.
NONE of us are getting our moneies worth.

That's so true

Voice wrote: Glamis has MANY TIMES more visitors than ANY OTHER OHV area in California.

That's so wrong .... but no time to show you again the #

But lets see what they find out with the business plan. Be not surprised when you guys spend much more next season.

V8rail · Post by **V8rail** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:26 pm

TomJeeps wrote:The Greenies highjacked our funds, the money
is gone what our the options?

TJ,

now i agree with you and that's exactly why I don't like the federal green sticker idea .... another place where the greenies can highjack our money

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:01 am

Ok options how about a short term plan with a HARD expiration date?
Some one said something about a brown sticker. In the past I was
hearing something about a Blue stamp. which is a spin off of the
game stamps hunters buy, these are sold to stick on hunting permits
as needed for short term needs. This works well because it takes
care of needs at the time and the fees don't accumulate. I know
this is old news but I am sick of seeing every one stuck in the same
rut. Writing letters to officials who frankly could not care less how
we feel and whining about double fees and taxes. I just would
like to think there could be life beyond Green sticker funds.

Mugman · Post by **Mugman** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:40 am

Writing your representatives & voting are our options for changes. Squabbling & name calling between duners is counterproductive. Our Green Sticker funds have been stolen for years & years. Originally the funds were proposed to fund off-road riding areas... period ! Now the funds are a slush fund for any politically backed project. The key to change is making the Governor, your representatives, & the Commision feel that their jobs depend on pro-off-road decisions. To do this you (& all your friends) MUST contact all your elected reps, the Governor, & the commission with your views & outrage. Have you written or e-mailed them yet ?

TomJeeps · Post by **TomJeeps** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:06 am

I feel some of the blame rest with the Forest service and BLM, they
should at least make the commission call things what they are, for
instance if they funded a position lets say OHV program coordinator
they would make you change it to more of a Greenie tree huger
coordinator but still call it OHV coordinator, so they can sit back in
all their righteousness and claim not to be misusing the funds.
The feds should at least make the commission formally deny
grants for what they should be funding , and make them call the
things they are funding what it really is. Stop letting the state
lead them around by the nose.

V8rail · Post by **V8rail** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:36 am

TJ,

You need to go to the meetings. This year BLM El Centro and Barstow only do LEO grants. The only O&M grant I know of is for the El Mirage visitor center. But nobody would be surprised when we don't get it ...

Then I'm not sure about El Centro, but the OHV coordinator in Barstow is NOT paid by the Green Sticker and he is not a tree hugger.

Everybody that fights for a longer time knows what he did for us in the past and is doing today.

Voice · Post by **Voice** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:19 am

But what can we do about it? How can we get the short term funds the ISDRA needs?

Herein lies our disagreement!!!

The ISDRA does not NEED any more money.
Try working the other side of this... instead of INCREASING the money lets try DECREASING the SPENDING!!!

The BLM cannot allow CA vehicles to ride at the ISDRA without a Green sticker. A green sticker is CA law and the BLM must support CA law. They could look the other way, sure, but they could not pass a law that said that Green Stickers are not required on BLM land..
Also, an off-road vehicle is required to have a Green Sticker regardless of whether it is being ridden or not. That means that any Off-Road vehicle that is owned by anyone living in CA must have a Green Sticker.
Hell, there's even a clause that says an officer can pull over any vehicle on the highway if they are hauling an off-road vehicle for the purpose of checking for that Green Sticker. ( A dubious law if I EVER heard one ).

The answer will NEVER be... "More programs"... It will always be LESS...
I would never back any new program designed to circumvent the Green Sticker program until that program is removed.

BTW: Thomas... thanks for not taking my comments personally...

I felt bad about singling you out.

Vor

azsandrider · Post by **azsandrider** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:38 pm

Voice:

How can you decrease spending when it seems like ISDRA visitors are demanding more services?

For Example:

I have no problem taking my trash home with me, but it seems like thousands do as they leave their trash piled beside the full dumpsters. Trash dumpsters costs several hundred thoudsand dollars a year and the BLM must pay employees to cleanup the trash left around the dumpster also. MONEY NEEDED TO OPERATE!

I don't need tiolets as I have a RV, but there are many campers who want tiolets or need tiolets. The need became most evident to me during the past South dunes clean up at Gordon's Well, no permanent tiolets, when I spent a lot of my time in the flats area picking wads of tiolet paper out from around "pucker bushes". MONEY NEEDED TO OPERATE!

More and more visitors are coming to the ISDRA and seem to respect other visitors less, trampling on others rights, and problerms occur. Therefore LEO rangers are needed to keep the peace. MONEY NEEDED TO OPERATE!

More people are riding in the dunes and going faster so there are greater incidents involving injury. Therefore more Rescue rangers needed. MONEY NEEDED TO OPERATE!

The ESA laws require special staff and studies to be completed. MONEY NEEDED TO OPERATE!

All this needs support staff, planning staff, and administration staff to operate. MONEY NEEDED TO OPERATE!

So what you may be willing to do without, many others may not.

While I agree the federal government could be run more efficiently, I don't think it is possible to have a great improvement until the politicians in Washington DC have the guts to make changes. That is where the problem lies.

Voice · Post by **Voice** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:23 pm

So you are saying that it's up to the government to supply toilets wherever people are?
You know, last time I was downtown I needed to relieve myself but guess what, no toilets! I knew, when I went down there that there were no toilets and I had to take care of the situation myself. I did not expect the government to take care of it for me.
The trash issue, if handled correctly, should not cost more than any typical trash program for a typical public area, like a beach. It doesn't cost a thing to go to the beach, yet, they do not seem to have much problem keeping them clean.
When I first started going to Glamis there were no rescue vehicles. I knew that if I had need of rescue it was up to me and my family to take care of the situation. It's a WILDERNESS!

No, the money at Glamis is being spent on OT for the Law Enforcement Officers, so that they can ticket people for riding double and no flag. They haven't listened to any of our suggestions, like checkpoints, which would be much more cost effective (and worked quite well the couple of times they DID do it). Instead, they bring in hundreds of cops who cruise around looking for reasons to justify their being there.

Money is wasted at Glamis for the purpose of looking like they are doing something. The truth is that when a large group gathers and the LEO's cannot dictate how it is assembled they feel threatened. They just cant stand the fact that people can assemble, take care of themselves and have a good time without police control.

If you don't have your own toilet then don't go to Glamis or be prepared to pay for it at the store. I should not have to pay so that you can crap in a public toilet.

Vor

tomjeeps2 · Post by **tomjeeps2** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:45 pm

Perhaps it's time to give this thread another ride...TJ

crash · Post by **crash** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:13 am

Voice wrote: It's a WILDERNESS!

Bite your tongue!!! It's NOT wilderness as defined by the federal government. I consider it open desert, and if the users have any brain what so ever, they will use the "buddy system".

Voice wrote: Money is wasted at Glamis for the purpose of looking like they are doing something. The truth is that when a large group gathers and the LEO's cannot dictate how it is assembled they feel threatened. They just cant stand the fact that people can assemble, take care of themselves and have a good time without police control.

If you don't have your own toilet then don't go to Glamis or be prepared to pay for it at the store. I should not have to pay so that you can crap in a public toilet.

Vor

100% correct on that.

tomjeeps2 · Post by **tomjeeps2** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:21 am

Point is how do we fund our sport, look at the past arguments agianst a Federal program, remember we also pay about the same in Federal fuel tax when we by gas. We banged this one out back when Clinton/Gore rained fear in our hearts, my "O" my how things have changed and the extra scary thing is, it can change back...TJ

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